Re:Re: France

"El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!" (lightningzone) 01/07/2015 at 17:57 • Filed to: None

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Well, I guess I shouldn't talk about France again, because I already did, and some other people did too. But I will just say that today, we're all French and we're all working for Charlie Hebdo.

Just have two nice versions of La Marseillaise.

And the American and French anthems, before some soccer game. Notice the French fans singing, that is a nation that won't go down that easy.

And here's Bill Maher, telling conservatives to stop rolling their eyes when they hear the word France.

davedave1111 > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 01/07/2015 at 19:01

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You know, while obviously I disagree with attacking the publisher, let alone murdering people, it does seem to me that those cartoons are all horrendously racist. I'm not exactly happy about supporting the actions of victims of racist violence without examining whether those actions are actually supportable.

I utterly condemn the terrorists' actions, but I also condemn those grotesquely racist cartoons.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > davedave1111 01/07/2015 at 19:28

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I did a little research on this publication.

First of all, Islam is NOT a race but a religion(not racism). Also Charlie Hebdo is known for satire and humor. That's what they do and they do it from the 60's, when president Charles De Gaulle wanted to ban them for a dirty joke about him.

They don't only bash Islam, but everything, from religions(all of them),to politicians, the inequalities in the society, Americans, the EU leadership, Putin, the tensions between China and Japan, and so on.

If you don't support free press(even if you like or don't like what they write or draw), you support the terrorists.

It's a "Porch-uh" > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 01/07/2015 at 19:28

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Great to see the world telling those people, and people like them, to fuck off in response.

It's a "Porch-uh" > davedave1111 01/07/2015 at 19:30

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Free speech. I may not agree with your words, but I support your right to say them without threat of violence, as they are just words.

davedave1111 > It's a "Porch-uh" 01/07/2015 at 19:32

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I completely agree, which is why I absolutely condemn the attacks on it. It's that next step, to actually supporting the victims' views, which I have trouble with in this case.

davedave1111 > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 01/07/2015 at 19:36

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"First of all, Islam is NOT a race but a religion(not racism)"

No, that's just semantic wibble racists use to excuse racism. 'Racism' does not have an exclusive definition in that way.

I'm aware of what Charlie Hebdo is. They've always been racist. They're like the old British sitcom Rising Damp, except they're still going today.

They also attack lots of other things, but that doesn't stop them being racist.

"If you don't support free press(even if you like what they write or draw), you support the terrorists."

But, as I've said, I do fully support the freedom of the press, and condemn the attacks. But that doesn't mean I support the way some people abuse that freedom.

There's a big difference between supporting the freedom of the press, and supporting a particular press-organisation.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > davedave1111 01/07/2015 at 19:45

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Look, I hate Fox News, I think they are a bunch of sneaky manipulators and a shame for journalists around the world. But I'd have the same reaction I had now, if some lunatics with assault rifles stormed their offices and killed the most important people there. Why? Because free press.

davedave1111 > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 01/07/2015 at 19:56

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Maybe Fox News is a less contentious example, so easier to talk about. I don't think you've understood my point: I will always condemn those who attack people for what they say, but that's very, very different from supporting what the victims actually said. I think Fox News says a lot that's very stupid and wrong (often ridiculously so), and that'll remain the case whether or not they're ever attacked by terrorists. If some nutcase environmentalist decides to bomb their offices, would that suddenly make global warming 'a lie', or would Fox still be wrong on that?

Similarly, Charlie Hebdo is still a far-right rag, even though they've been attacked. I condemn the attack, but I won't support CH's racism/xenophobia/what-have-you.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > davedave1111 01/07/2015 at 20:39

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Nope, even if Fox News is attacked, they will be the stupid news channel, but I totally support their right to be stupid.

And to be honrst, CH is not far right, apparently they gave more flak to the right wing politicians than they gave to the left ones(Angela Merkel was one their favorite political targets and she is a white European).

Racism? Not at all. You can say they weren't the most politically correct publication in the world, but hey, it's still comedy. Why? Because they went after everyone, even those like themselves.

And again that's why it's called a satire paper and not a newspaper, nobody takes it seriously, except for muslims, and you, apparently. You can easily protest them, you don't like it, you don't buy it. In fact that could've actually shut them, because it is advertising free(their only income comes from the copies they sell).

davedave1111 > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 01/07/2015 at 21:16

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"I totally support their right to be stupid."

You still seem to miss the difference between supporting their right to be stupid, and supporting the stupidity itself.

"And to be honrst, CH is not far right, apparently they gave more flak to the right wing politicians than they gave to the left ones"

No, simply not true. This week's issue's lead story was a puff-piece on a far-right politician's work of 'fiction' about a future France under Sharia law.

"Racism? Not at all. You can say they weren't the most politically correct publication in the world, but hey, it's still comedy. Why? Because they went after everyone, even those like themselves."

No, it doesn't work like that. Just because you criticise various groups of people doesn't give you a free hand to be racist as well. It's perfectly possible to criticise people without being racist. And no, they don't do the same thing to everyone. 'White' people aren't caricatured by them with the same racist iconography.

And, by the way, there's a yawning chasm between 'not politically correct' and 'downright racist filth'. CH is very much in the latter category.

The fact is, they're not Viz or something, they're a nasty little racist rag which is spat upon by most French people. That seems to have been lost in the horror at the attack on them.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > davedave1111 01/07/2015 at 22:24

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No, you know what? Condemning the attack is not enough. You have to strongly support everyone's right to make fun of any religion and any god and any prophet and any sacred burger and whatever. Until then, you're only trying to sell vanilla flavored, diet orange soda and that's not good. Satire is as old, in Europe, as the French Revolution, and Americans always hoped to be as good at it as Europeans are.

Those people ignored threads and violence because they believed in a basic principle of our society and they paid with their lives for their defying courage. They are heroes who understood that freedom of expression is not negotiable.

And I don't know, nor care, what that article said, but I can tell you that the implementation of sharia, or any religion based law, in a democracy is dangerous for the very foundation of that democracy.